Re: UKNM: plug-in take up/stats

[jim smith]

At 1:29 pm +0100 on 27/4/99 you said:

>Ray Taylor wrote:

>>

>> ... and just to clarify further, I am not pro- or anti- frames any more than

>> I am pro- or anti- flash (though I must admit to confusing the two in my

>> last posting). The same customer-focus tests should apply.

>>

>> But many frames sites are so badly designed that a no-frames version would

>> be better and even with a well-designed frames site, the frames layout

>> doesn't necessarily add any value to the equivalent no-frames version.

>

>there's more to it than this; Frames implementations in the browsers are

>awful. The concept is awful. The crappy workarounds they did to make the

>back buttons still work, the Frame-selection mechanism, the inability to

>bookmark. The things Frames do to HTTP1.1 Keepalives. Search engine

>traffic.


these are implementation issues as far as the creators of sites are

concerned, mostly. just because something is hard for us to do it doesn't

mean that it's not a good solution.


thing is, frames usually aren't a good solution. there's still a place for

frames for navigation: the problem is that there are so few designers who

can design a usable navigation system that most sites framed or not are

counter-intuitive to use. if i see one more site with nav buttons on all

four edges of the page i'll hunt down the designer and spank them.


the main issue is that they're not *necessary*: if cleanly architected

sites like the BBC news site can function without frames, then what purpose

do they serve?



>These things all break the usability that people expected and originally

>*got* from their browsers. They turned the most elegant information

>dissemination mechanism yet devised into an ugly, unworkable mess.

>

>How many more reasons do you want?

>

>Can anyone name a large site that still uses frames?


anything OM's ever done?


--//--------------------------------------------------------------------

jim smith -

jimflenser [dot] co [dot] uk

  -  http://www.flenser.co.uk  0961 319040

everything has been said, provided words do not change their meanings or

meanings their words                                         -- alpha 60 

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