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Subject: Re: ISP needs Flash site,chance for exposure
From: David Gary
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:14:02 +0100

Wayne Townsend wrote:

Frm: David to Marjorie:
>With all due respect, I would discourage anyone from taking on a project
>like this for absolutely no compensation

"Hi David (-DG-),
good to see you posting again!

You make a valid point, and I hate to be contrary,
but exposure has always been costly and difficult to get.
Especially, when the developer market becomes crowded.
As is happening now."

Hiya Wayne,

Theres absolutely NO compensation in this. Its a technique used by companies to get something
for nothing.
Im a traditional llustrator by trade and a member of the Artist Guild. This "discouragement"
is recognized and supported by
this organization. Its not a new method used by companies needing cheap advertising work just
because of the internet. It has
been around forever in the print industry as well. Mostly targeting students, however still
hurting the professional.

Apologies, but, I have no clue what you mean by "crowded". The digital designer's field is
booming with opportunities
for the professional artist..
Most are in the 3D animation market, gaming and CD-Rom development. With the speed of the
internet always
increasing My corporation is betting on the same with Flash3 technology for interactive
interface design.
Plug-in is definetly a hurdle. But thats a gamble we are all taking. Should we not follow the
rule of thumb for the traditional
advertising artist maket?

Take for example the ever so popular Gabocorp site. Lately their not taking on any more
projects due to need for quality
I dont think Gabo got his exposure designing free sites and I dont think hes turning away
business because hes busy
doing free work.

"I have no doubt that a Flash Artist somewhere
is going to take advantage of this."

I hope not. It hurts all of us and degrades a standard that we should be creating rather than

We all should charge based on our experience.

"The *offer is* that someone can trade a few hours
of their time & creativity,
in exchange for publicity."

Whats "plublicity" on the internet? Anyone care to answer? There are plenty of effective and
cheap ways to advertise
yourself on the net. Look at the subject line of this post. Prime example. The more experience
you have in this market will sell itself and will expose itself to those serious clients
looking for it..

I think Ill go down and ask my local BMW dealer to give me a Beamer for free and in return
Ill promise to tell people where I got it. Of course people will ask how much it cost and Ill
them I got it for free just by telling people where I bought it. How many of these people do
you think
would rush down to the BMW dealer expecting to pay sticker price for a BMW?

Its called logic.

Theres no "plublicity" here. Just a ISP trying to get something for nothing.
Anyone who promotes or defendes this practice insults
any professional designer on this list.

You can goto your local bookstore and buy the "Artist Guild handbook". It will tell you what
the market demands and advises on some of the best ways to promote yourself. Doing "free" work

for the benefit of the client is not one of them.

You can also visit http://www.gag.org for more info.

>"For some people who are not totally booked, as you seem to be"


"this is a workable arrangement".

What arrangement?

You work, you get paid. That should always be the arrangement.

You should charge based on your experience.

"The practice is actually very common,
and has led to many artist's personal success,
in many kinds of media, over the years."

Wayne, may I ask what your background is?

"For the Flash Artist considering it, I would ask
just how much exposure this ISP has,
and then weigh your time,
and make your decision based on that."

For the Flash artist considering this "opportunity", I would say:

Please goto your local bookstore and buy the "Artist Guild handbook". It will tell you how
the market works and how to promote it.

"I can assure you, that
if Disney called
and asked you to put something together,
you wouldn't think twice
and would comp the time. "

Im glad you brought this up. I live in Orlando and socialize with several lead
animators/background artists at MGM.
I moved down here for Intership with the studio painting backgrounds for the features.
"Hey, do it for Disney and you'll get work". This urban fallacy is not worth the weight its
written on.
Bottom line is, experience and quality will get you work more than who you've worked for. The
best thing I could advise any
designer is: do good work and keep a good reputation with the client. But _never_ work for
free. Thats the worst
way to promote yourself and the field. Doing "freebie" work will only bring clients wanting
more freebie work and expecting
the same from the market.
Even large clients like Disney will get it done free if they can. Problem is with urban
fallacies like your defending
they do, all the time.
Fortunately, did you hear how much Disney paid for their "interactive" site? It was by far for

"So, let's not write-off this method entirely at first glance.
It has worked before, for both sides."

Dont get me wrong, there are grey areas. This is not one of them. If I've done work for a
client and have established an opportunity for work in the future, its an advantage to do
"extra" work for no charge or "throw a cookie" their way.
However this ISP's expectations are obviously to the advantage of their company will
absolutely _no_
compensation but "exposure"
Look at what they've offered. Nothing

Please, please give me proof of this method working for the artist.
With all due respect Wayne this "method" is a sure fire way
of promoting the "Digital starving artist".

We can hurt ourselves here and most of us dont even know it.

"Thx for listening."

I hope you did.


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  Re: ISP needs Flash site,chance for expo, David Gary
  Re: ISP needs Flash site,chance for expo, Dorian Nisinson

  Re:ISP needs Flash site,chance for expos, Craig Ferrante
  Re: ISP needs Flash site,chance for expo, Jason

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