Re: FLASH: Pricing Guide (+ Licensing)

[Laura Mollett]

Franke,


> Thanks for your reply on the Clearnet pinball game. This opens up an

> interesting discussion...

Well I think it's interesting, thanks :)


> Whether the agency made their money back or not is of little concern (except

> to them ;-).

It mattered to *me* because it's an indication of how long/complex the work

is vs how much return you're getting. A lot of us are freelancers, running

our own businesses, and it's a serious question to be able to put in, say a

year's worth of work without some idea of making the basic input back. You

have to be solvent for another year to do that (I hafta feed those kids,

they really insist on it...) But I don't think that game took a year's worth

of work, so it becomes a moot point. Even as single-owner/employee

businesses, we can deal on this level.


> Splashworks were very smart to do a licensing deal because then

> they participate in the success of their work, beyond hourly/project fees.

Yes, it's a smart way to do business. The question then becomes, how do you

find/attract companies willing to do business this way, and will they

continue to be willing to do business this way if the input isn't as high as

you were originally thinking? And should Helen tell her client that the

games can't be bid out in the same way that the rest of the web design work

is? (hm, I hope this conversation doesn't run into price-fixing kinds of

things...) Branden was talking about making 10k for 6 hours of work, but

he's working through a "middleman" (I'm not quite sure what that means :).


I'd be happy to produce a flash pinball game, using the advertising imagery

and logos of any client that wants it for $5,000 a month for six months :)

(and I keep the rights). (Or honestly for quite a bit less than that -

should I refuse to work for less?) Ok, so now, do I create the game and then

look for the client? If I build up a portfolio by taking lesser paying jobs

or volunteering the way we often suggest designers get started, aren't I

lessening the ultimate value of the games?


I'd be fascinated in some realworld figures from clevermedia or the creators

of lenny loosejocks or similar companies - how much work are they getting,

how much does it pay, how long does the creation take, is there enough work

for as much competition as this group could put into this field? How much

trouble do they have convincing smaller businesses to license, or is all the

revenue generated by fortune 500 companies? Do I need Branden's programming

skills and original game concepts? How many of us can get by on different

versions of pinball (there's a mahjong game on the candystand site <sigh>...

it wasn't there last time I was.) How much do these businesses care about

the design and long-term interest of the game? (I wouldn't spend a lot of

time on that site for that little pinball game - there's too many other

versions that are better) etc. etc. :) And of course, noone but us cares

that my game is made in flash (and new for that reason) and that other one

is java, for example (cept that the flash version might run more smoothly).


> Shockwave

> and Flash artists will benefit from understanding the value of copyright and

> the power it gives them to sell specific rights, to specific parties

> (clients) for specific lengths of time, in specific industries and media.

Agreed. Thank you for saying it. Understanding your rights as a creator is

always important. But there are "real-world" issues - you have to be able to

get the work on those terms.


> The concept is also similar to performance fees which some ad agencies use

> (and which we have used successfully). If you create a "hit" you'll earn

> more money than if you create a dud.

This implies that you're creating the games on spec. That's much more

difficult for freelancers, and quite often the end results are not in

quality but in marketing. It's not a matter of creating a dud - everyone and

their brother might love my game, but if I can't get it seen in the right

way by the right people, it's not going to have the "hit status" that

someone who could afford major marketing efforts is going to be able to

provide. Did MS really make the best product or was Apple just stupid about

marketing - is a vhs better'n a beta? There's lots of wonderful work that

just doesn't get seen. Advertising is a complicated field and the public is

fickle.


> With the

> licensing model you can earn money while you sleep, just like creative

> artists in other fields.

Well writers, but traditionally artists just sell paintings outright. Unless

they're doing illustration, they don't generate a lot of royalties. And it's

been a long hard fight to get to the point where the publishers weren't

taking all the rights, and the creators dying in poverty, and basically all

publishing is done that way - there are standard rates paid to

writers/illustrators (graphic designers are often salaried). And a whole

network of traditional marketing - you write the novel on spec, find a

publisher who pays for it and markets it. And there are many many people who

*want* to be bestselling writers, not so many making it :) And the net is

cutting heavily into profits in these fields and where that'll take us all

is still way up in the air. (Why pay money for a comic book when you can

read one for free on the internet?) And the "free" sites on the net are

making their money in advertising (which sounds like the way to go to me -

though we're back to 'spec' work - set up a site, give away the

game/comic/product for free to attract people, and charge the advertisers

and you've got slashdot et. al.) and you're on the same model as television,

but then we're back to the amorphous quality of advertising. The businesses

putting up ads and paying to keep you in business want some idea that

they're getting something from it... do people buy products because they're

bombarded with product names? well, seems so... but it's complicated. Course

that's not for us to worry about - we build the sites people like and let

the advertisers be concerned about ROI, as long as they're willing to pay

for it? ;)


Hm, so I guess I should go build a site and start working on a large

user-base - I'll be back in a couple of years ;) (kidding)


Laura


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